On Israel and Its Politics
and the Muslim World
Assistant
Gary Davis
An Amazing speech by Benjamin Netanyahu to the United Nations 2009
URL = http://www.jr.co.il/articles/pm-netanyahus-speech-at-the-un-general-assembly.htm
Aubrey Ginsberg
Ok guys at the risk of being tared and fethered ,ostrasised, tied to a stake, or/ just being hated i will add in my 2 cents with regards to the stamp.
firstly i am left wing ,believe in peace and would give back most of the territories if it meant living side by side with my neighbours.
The point being made by the article is a just one, and unfortunately whether we like it or not most of today?s global terrorism is Muslim. El Keida is now worldwide ( 9/11) and there hatred has no bounds. there hatred of America is nearly as great as that of Jews.
Whilst one should never punish the whole for the sins of the individual ,like the Nazis (not Christians) the fact that most Moslems don?t condem terrorism is enough.
Having had a rock thrown thru my windshield,been shot at whilst driving past Jerico,having Kasamim shot at our area for the last 8 years, having a friend killed by mortar fire,and living in a country where terrorism is very real, i am able to comment on the USA putting its head in the sand with regards to terrorism.The USA is a Christion country whose language is English and not arabic. Why don?t the print stamps for all religious holidays.
The global threat is real and one only has to look at the UK to understand what im talking about. they would love turn the clock back
Sorry for being so serious
Still love u all
Aubrey
Philip Cramer
Agree with you 100%. Arab/Muslim fanaticism is THE problem in the world today. It?s based on a world view that is anti-progress, anti-women, anti human rights and extremely homophobic. It?s sad that their world has not been able to produce a leader like Mandela who has been able to rise above it.
Lindsay Leveen
Aubrey Thanks for sharing. The saying two cents worth actually came from the fact that a first class letter used to cost 2 cents to mail and the stamp was 2 cents worth. Stamps now cost 42 cents so we would think the saying should be 42 cents worth. The stamp does not have to be licked it is self ahhesive so at least I won?t get a bitter taste in my mouth using it. My guess is that 99% of muslims would like to live in peace but they are shit scared of the 1% that rule them with no democratic institutions. The 1% causing kak add up to 15 million and if only 1% of these are interested in 72 virgins we have 150,000 killers on our hands. I have a way for Islam to have a reformation but I doubt the grand muftis will go for it. I would hold a conference and at that conference I would tell the assembled muftis that the Koran has been misinterpreted. The reading error is that instead of suicide bombers getting 72 virgins in heaven they really only get one 72 year old virgin. Viola no more incentive to prove that detonation is a fast way to heaven.
On a real basis the work Anael is doing with young girls is where we have to start. It aint going to come from Mr I?m a Dinner Jacket. and our latest Peace prize winner chatting with him.
Tevis Shapiro
Aubrey, I always recalled you as a front row forward and not a left wing! Something to do with the Body Shape?
Having read where the comments about the stamp are going and from the starting point of the EID stamp [Thanks Gary], the goldstone report and the Netanyahu speech, it set me to thinking about issues that have been floating araound in my mind for a while so I am going to walk where Angels Fear to Tread!I hope no-one takes it personally and that I don?t tread on any toes.
Who are these ?Moslems?? What is this Moslem World??
what is, or was, the fundamental rerason behind the decision to commemorate a Muslim Religious Holiday in what is an essentially Christian country? Is there not a contradiction in terms here. The ?Land of the Free? commemorates a Moslem holiday! Islam, as propunded by the fundamentalists must be the very antithesis of any religion or, for that matter, society based on the fundamental rights of each individual and enshrined, in one way or another in every Wetern democracies constitution or charter. What would the reaction have been from the Moslem world had a decision been taken to commemorate the Jews by way of a postage stamp? Probably outrage.
Is this whole issue, and the fact that it is being debated by us who are spread across every moral and religious spectrum imaginable, not merely symptomatic of a far deeper malaise which has affected and insdeed paralysed the so-called Western democracies for hundreds if not thousands of years.
The first point i raised was ?What is this Moslem World?? are the approximately 6 million French Moslems French first and Moslems second or are they simply Moslems who happen to live in France? Likewise the vast number of British Moslems who live in Birmingham . ditto iran, Pakistan and, for that matter, the USA.I suppose that the same goes for the jews. Are we first S Africans and then Jews or the opposite? ditto Americans etc.
In his comment on the shamas thread, Aubrey refers to the UK and them wishing that they could turn back the clock! It reminded me of a speech I read in an anthology of great 20th Century speeches. It was a speech presented by Enoch Powell, a Conservative Minister in 1968 in Birmingham. The catch phrase was ?I see the River Tiber foaming with much blood?He raised what, to him was the spectre of unrestricted and unrestrained emmigration into the UK of Asian emmigration with the concommitant dangers to the social and religious fabric of the country at the time. I accept that the speech was racially aligned and not specifically anti-moslem but the principal was set out.It was dobtless politically incorrect but enunciated whatr a lot of people were scared to say.[Needless to say that was the end of his political career]
Thus the malaise which I referred to was, of course ?appeasement?
Had the Western Democracies not, during the 1930?s stood back and allowed the scourge of National Socialism to reach its peak in Germany and had they stood their ground at the time of the Anschliuss and the annexation of the Sudetenland, who knows what the history of Europe would have been from 1934 till ?????
The opposite side of that coin, however, is ?Would there be a State of Israel?? if not for the Holocaust?
What I am trying to say, in a very muddled and imprecise way, is that when differing ideologies bump heads, the so-called Western ideology based on the notional Rule Of Law and individual human rights will always come off second best.
Likewise we, as Jews, are I beleive, now faced with a situation that may be as critical to our very existence as Nazism was in the 30?s and 40?s.
Hitler had the podium in the Reichstag [Legally and constitutionally]
Ahmadinejad had the podium at the UN.
Both espoused the destruction of world Jewry
Both received rapturous applause!
I beleive that we must accept, as a given, that Anti-Semitism, either overt or covert, is endemic in the human psyche, has been and will continue to be as idelogies wax and wane. It started in the Egyptian times, flowed through Roman times and over 5000 years later is still with us.[On the other hand so are we, but where are the Roamns?]
But I digress. This was supposed toi be about the EID stamp. Do not the Moslem world wield power totally disproportiamte to their achievments. Thousands of years ago, the Islam world created an empire that for centuries was well, in advance of the christian world in terms of scholarship, governance and economic managment. Where is it now?
If there ?way? is so wonderful, why do they seek so slavishly to acquire residence in the world of the infidel eg. America, England and France etc.
The Americans will have to help me on this one. Lev, Phil and Gary are there stamps commemorating Succoth, Purim and, for that matter Lent and the Coptic festivals? If not, why just the Moslem festivals?
In 1975 when the UN passed a resolution equating Zionism with Racism Abba Aban, the Israeli Foreign minister made a speech in which he said ? In years to come this body will come to realise and appreciate the dangers which face the Western democracies arising from the unrestrained and unrestricted rise of Islam fundamentalism which is flowing from what I call the Ancient Lands and has its sights set to the West.? Prphetic, NO?
Many random threads and points to consider and, hopefully, debate. I hope so.
If not, I may just have to pack up, move to Israel, take up residence at Meggido and await Armageddon!
Hope i haven?t trodden on any toes and look forward to some robust debate. Maybe different ponts of view will clarify my thinking on the issues and I will then be able to put it into a more concise and cogent format. lets be hearing from you guys
Gary Davis
Dear Aubs,
U stated ? Ok guys at the risk of being tared and feathered?
What is with the feathers? Are u a fagila?
In the USA u can get a stamp for any occasion ie Hanukkah, Kwanzaa etc. If u cannot find it u can go to stamps.com and compile your own. We are here to please everyone. We are a peaceful country?we just won the Noble Peace Prize??.hmmm come to think of it so did Yasser Arafat and Jimmy Carter.
I am not very enamored with the American Muslims because their leaders do not stand up in public / TV and condemn the heinous acts or statements that have taken place or said in the name of Allah.
Lindsay Leveen
Tevis et al thanks for the posts and making the points you all make. We as teenagers kind of lived in a world where most of the western world felt some sorrow or guilt. Now the world is numb and dumb. The population explosion in Yemen, Iran, Gaza and the complete lack of resources and opportunity make people fanatical. The Russians had a brand on condoms called ?little red riding hood? time to market that stuff in Iran. It was funny that the Brits called their condoms French Letters and the French call theirs Capot Anglais (English caps). I would not mind if the Iranians called theirs yamulkas as long as they used them. Actually on a serious note the only way around this is birth control else we wind up with death control.
Anael (Heather) Mio
I won?t go into politics etc I can just share from my own experience with the Muslim girls that I have met through my work??many of them come to camp hating us and having an agenda ? wanting to tell us how much we make them suffer etc?..some of them were even very close to becoming suicide bombers and after meeting the ?other side? as they all call it ? learn about our suffering ? why we are here ? learn about the Holaucast- etc etc
when we share our pain and cry with each other ? transformation and healing happens?the girls that wanted to be suicide bombers are now in our young leader program and are and totally committed to peace??it is all about education ? letting go of our cultural conditioning. All of us ? or most of us have been taught to hate each other ? never to trust each other etc?..
I heard someone say something the other day that touched me..He heard it in a prison ? said by a prisoner ! ?.?Hurt people, hurt people!? So many people are hurting ? on both sides??I could go on and on?..but I will stop now ? I need to sleep
All I know is that peace is possible ? the girls teach me this ? I know that I only can do the best I can ? one girl at a time??.hope that eventually will be able to help change consiousness ? I know it can happen ? because I have changed ? I hated Arabs with a vengance ? now I love these girls as if they were my own daughters??.
enough ? I am off to sleep?..just want to tell you all how much this reconnection has touched my heart and been healing for me ? thanks to each and every one of you??Heather/Anael
Sam Sharp
Tevis Your concern for the Western World is shared by all of us. And the ongoing obsession of those who wish to destroy the Jews continues to be a blight. But it is not a mystery. The hatred of Jews comes from somewhere. The source is ignorance. Kids are brought up with the views and values of their parents who propogate what they were taught and the whole thing is repeated for another generation. We could have been the same. Many of our grandparents and parents held views that were fundamentally racist. If we escaped that it was only through education. Not just through the influences of the Eddie Websters, Luli Zampatakises and others, but through our exposure to other forces and ideas as we read, travelled and developed. Try though the Nats did, like the Soviet communists and all other totalitarian governments, they could not keep out ideas.
Similarly, along with images of Nike and Coke, so too do messages about tolerance, mutual respect and equality seep into the Arab and Muslim worlds. But only if they are transmitted. Therefore, I don?t see it as a weakness that we commemorate the ?EID?. Let us celebrate differences. If both sides are going to erect barriers and continue to hate in ignorance behind them there is no hope. If at least one side brings down the shutters, and extends a hand of friendship to those willing to hear these messages, perhaps those not willing will be defeated by the weight of their own folly. This is Anael?s lesson to us all.
Besides, as you point out, there was much to admire about Muslim culture and scholarship for about six hundred years. It gave the world much of its early mathematics, art and science. Words like ?Algebra? and ?Algorithm? are Arabic in origin. The current predicament of so many millions of Muslims is a tragedy for them and the world. Can you imagine how much further the world would have developed if its great cultural forces had cooperated instead of clashed.
But it is a vexing subject to be sure.
P.S.
I once heard Max Bygraves say that it was Enoch Powell?s dying wish to have a thousand Pakistanis dance on his grave. He also wanted to be buried at sea.
Terry Levenberg
I spent a few hours researching both Enoch Powell ( an extremely complex man). In the end the conclusion I must draw is that whilst his predictions may have found some fulfilment in the actions of a tiny and mad minority, watching England play netball tonight made me think how enriching the past 50 years have been for that society which opened itself up for mass migration of people from everywhere into its heart. I have no doubt that what has happened to England in sport translates into what happens there culturally and in every other way. It may not be the same place that Powell imagined England to be but it is a richly diverse and exciting place. And they have been through and overcome the ghetto riots.
What if they and the Americans had closed their doors as some have suggested they should have?
Jews would clearly have found themselves dismissed at the doors.
Lets be grateful that in the US there is a postal service so enlightened to issue stamps that celebrate Kwanza and Hannukah and Ein and Xmas.
Tevis Shapiro
Sam, i agree with everything that you have said regarding source of this obsession with the destruction of Jewry. However, something I would like to throw in! IT IS CONVENIENT to have the Jews around to blame for when things go wrong. This of course flows back into ignorance. Not that I am acquiescing to our parents and grandparents possibly covert rascist beliefs, perhaps they were moulded by a desire not to be too ?up Front? in the early years after the war and living in this country with its, shall we say, ?tainted leadership?
Is not the problem that, as far as the Moslem world is concerned, we have this great ?middle ground? of apathetic people who do not take a position either way and allow the funamentalist leadership to occupy the driving seat. The Moslem friends and colleagues that I have here are so far divorced from the radical left [or right depending on ones viewpoint] as to appear to come from a different world.The same goes for Jews and any other group of people. Its easier to keep quiet. Thank G-D for people like Anael/Heather who try, for no material reward, to show the other side and break down barriers.
I think you misunderstood me regarding the specific reference to the stamp!I do not regard it as a weakness to commemorate eID by way of a stamp. All I am saying is lets have a level playing field and acknowledge it for what it is. A commemoration of a religious festival celebrated by one of the major Abrahamic religions just as we and the Christians have theirs. By commemorating EID on a stamp we are not approving of the fundamentalist view that all non-Moslems are infidels, should be either converted or destroyed and as far as the Jews are concerned, they should be the victims of a Jihad!
i suppose that we shaould hope that the trite saying ?cometh the hour cometh the man? comes true. Maybe it already has started. Mandela came along to avert a genocide and Anael is in place breaking down barriers. Maybe I should change the quote so as not to appear sexist ?Cometh the hour cometh the person?
Appropo your comment about the clashing of cultures, in the modern world wasn?t the clash always based somewhere along the lines of religious intolerance. I heard a saying ?More blood has been spilled in the name of G-D than in any other cause? I am going to be like Lev! If no-one can find the author of that saying, I will appropriate it as mine!
Have just read Terrys reply to the thread and don?t want to rewrite this reply. I agree with terry that Enoch Powell was an extremely complex man and, without doubt as racist as any. However, without in any way agreeing with what he propounded and agreeing with his politics, the content of the speech had some relevance to the time and place in which it was delivered. England, at the time, was fundamentally racist and class orientated. He was saying what a working class audience wanted to hear! The principal relating to Asiatic immigration into England can, if one fudges ones focus a bit, apply equally to Moslem immigration! It is simply a question of being aware and trying to negate the apathy of the majority of people. its simply of accepting differences, accepting what is good [or better] from other cultures and being open to change. One of the radio talk show hosts here said, shortly after 1994 ?This is the most remarkable country in the world. We had a Nationalist government from 1948 to 1994 and now, after the election, not one person who has phoned in to this station or any of our sister stations ever voted NAT. How did they stay in power. Don?t tell me not one English speaker ever voted NAT!?
history has a habit of repeatiung itself over and over again so I will finish this off with a quote which I think I developed. ? If you know not where you camke from, you know not where you are and if you know not where you are, you know not where you go?
Anael, so nice to link up with you again, even though vicariously.
lets hear it from you guys
Gary Davis
I am a supporter of The Heritage Foundation. As a result of the foundation I have also become a supporter of American Congress for Truth (ACT). The founder of ACT, Brigitte Gabriel, is a very passionate and informative speaker. Due to the facebook discussion which started as a result of a stamp that Aubs questioned (well done Aubs) I have attached two lectures given by Briggitte about Islam. Click on the links and then click on ?View Event?. Enjoyon Brigitte Gabriel ?details the hard truths about radical Islam, detailing not only the mortal extremes to which Islamofascists are willing to go in their quest for cultural domination, but also the fundamental steps to meet and defeat their challenge. Continuing to raise awareness of activist, fanatical movements,?
http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092308b.wvx
Heritage Foundation
Philip Cramer
Have to disagree on Brigitte Gabriel. I checked out her speeches and came across this quote,
?The difference, my friends, between Israel and the Arab world is the difference between civilization and barbarism. It?s the difference between good and evil ?. this is what we?re witnessing in the Arabic world, They have no SOUL !, they are dead set on killing and destruction. And in the name of something they call ?Allah? which is very different from the God we believe?. because our God is the God of love.?
She has also said that all Muslims who prays devoutly every dayare by definition a ?Radical Muslims?.
According to her, the problem is the religion, not the radical version that has been hijacked by a small but loud minority.
I cannot buy that argument in any way, shape or form. Her logic gives us only one choice and that is to wipe out Islam. Good luck with that. The Western world tried once already (The Crusades) and that didn?t work out too well.
Naomi Stein
I have been asked by a someone involved in politics here to find out where he could get some literature, preferably written by a knowledgeable S African to counter the current popular view that puts Israel and apartheid in the same sentence as S Africa and apartheid. There is some stuff on the internet, but that is insufficient, and not reaching many people. It would be great if it was written by an unbiased party. Do any of you have any ideas where I could find this? Would any of you knowledgeable articulate people like to put something together?
I dont have to explain to you the anti-Israel sentiment this part of the world??.
Gary Davis
Divest and Conquer
By ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
A nasty and immoral campaign is being waged around the world to damage Israel?s economy by coercing universities and other institutions into divesting their holdings in Israel, as some of them did from South Africa during the apartheid regime. There is no justification for the comparison between the two, and the divestment effort should be opposed by anyone who supports human rights.
As fair-minded observers understand, the two cases are entirely different. South African apartheid was a racist system by which a minority controlled and subjugated a disenfranchised majority. The campaign for South African divestment was inspired and joined by long-term advocates of neutral support for human rights across the board. Israel, by contrast, is a functioning democracy that guarantees full equality before the law to all its citizens, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. The anti-Israel divestment campaign has been inspired by pleaders with a particular animus toward Israel and little commitment to human rights in general.
The intellectual leader of this campaign is none other than Noam Chomsky, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology linguist, who has long favored the abolition of the state of Israel and the substitution of a ?secular, binational state? based, it seems, on the model of Lebanon. This is the same Chomsky who has defended the ?findings? of the notorious French antisemite and Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson, who claims ?the Jews? were responsible for World War II. Chomsky has said that he saw ?no hint of antisemitic implications in Faurisson?s works,? including his denial of the Holocaust, which Chomsky claims is based on ?extensive historical research.? Chomsky went so far as to write an introduction to one of Faurisson?s antisemitic books.
Of course, Chomsky is not alone in his divest-from-Israel campaign. He is joined in his ignoble effort by a motley assortment of knee-jerk anti-Zionists, rabid America-haters, radical leftists such as the Trotskyist Spartacist League and even a few of Chomsky?s former students who now teach in Israel. Some in this movement would take the money now invested in the Middle East?s only democracy and have it sent to ?progressive? states ? countries such as Iraq, Libya, Syria, Cuba and the Palestinian Authority, which support and finance terrorism.
Thankfully, the divestment effort has garnered little support so far among respectable human rights advocates. Here in Cambridge, Mass., on Chomsky?s home turf, a petition demanding divestment from Harvard and MIT garnered just 412 signatures from among students, faculty, staff and alumni of the two institutions, while more than 5,300 signed petitions opposing divestment. The result should surprise no one. There is no intellectually or morally defensible case for singling out Israel for divestiture. Universities invest in a wide array of companies that have operations in countries all over the world, including many that systematically violate the human rights of millions of people. And these other countries are not defending themselves against those who would destroy them and target their civilians. Yet this petition focuses only on the Jewish state, to the exclusion of all others, including those that ? by any reasonable standard ? are among the worst violators of human rights.
As an advocate, teacher and student of human rights for almost 40 years, I feel confident in asserting that Israel?s record on human rights is among the best in the world, especially among nations that have confronted comparable threats.
Israel has the only independent judiciary in the entire Middle East. Its Supreme Court, one of the most highly regarded in the world, is the only court in the Middle East from which an Arab or a Muslim can expect justice, as many have found in winning dozens of victories against the Israeli government, the Israeli military and individual Israeli citizens. There is no more important component in the protection of human rights and civil liberties than an independent judiciary willing to stand up to its own government. I challenge the proponents of divestment to name a court in any Arab or Muslim country that is comparable to the Israeli Supreme Court.
As the only true democracy in the Middle East, Israel is the only country in the region that has virtually unlimited freedom of speech. Any person in Israel ? whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian ? can criticize the Israeli government and its leaders. No citizen of any other Middle Eastern or Muslim state can do that without fear of imprisonment or death. As one wag recently put it, citizens of Israel and the Palestinian Authority have exactly the same right of free speech ? both may criticize Israel and praise Yasser Arafat.
Israel is the only country in the world that has openly confronted the difficult issue of protecting the civil liberties of the ticking bomb terrorist. The Israeli Supreme Court recently ruled that despite the potential benefits of employing ?physical pressure? (that is, using non-lethal torture in order to extract information), such pressure is now illegal in Israel. Brutal torture, including lethal torture, is commonplace in nearly every other Middle Eastern and Muslim country. Indeed, American authorities sometimes send suspects to Egypt, Jordan and the Philippines precisely because they know that they will be tortured in those countries.
The list could go on and on, and by every single standard Israel would surpass other countries against which no divestiture petition has been directed. To be sure, Israel is far from perfect. I have been critical of some of its policies, as have countless Israeli citizens. Crucially, there are mechanisms within Israel for improving its civil liberties and human rights record. These mechanisms do not exist in other Middle Eastern and Muslim nations.
Even when judged against European nations, Israel?s human rights record does very well. It is far better than that of France on virtually any criterion, even if one forgets about the Algerian War, in which the French military tortured and murdered thousands of people. It is least as good as the British record in dealing with terrorism in Northern Ireland. The Israeli legal system is far superior to that of Italy, Spain and many other European countries.
There are, of course, difficult issues to be resolved between Israel and the Palestinians. These include the future of the settlements, the establishment of Palestinian self-governance and the prevention of terrorism. These issues will require compromise on all sides. Americans are and must be free to criticize Israel when they disagree with its policies or actions, as they criticize any other country in the world whose record is not perfect. But to single out the Jewish state of Israel, as if it were the worst human rights offender, is bigotry pure and simple. Those who sign the Chomsky petition should be ashamed of themselves. If they are not, it is up to others to shame them.
Here?s an alternative to singling out Israel for divestment: Let universities choose nations for investment in the order of the human rights records. If that were done, investment in Israel would increase dramatically, while investments in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Philippines, Indonesia, the Palestinian Authority and most other countries of the world would decrease dramatically.
I challenge Noam Chomsky to a public debate on whether universities should invest in or divest from companies that do business with Israel and other countries.
Alan M. Dershowitz is a professor of law at Harvard University and author of ?Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age? (Little, Brown & Co., 2002).
From Me
Sam Sharp
Tubby ? perhaps I did misunderstand you on that point ? apologies ? but I don?t think I see any remaining differences in our views on this. Jewish scapegoating is certainly prevalent and the hypocrisy is astounding when one looks at proportion of UN resolutions that relate to Israel and the human rights record of most of the member states. The only thing I would add is that the silent majority of Muslims live mostly in countries where it is frowned upon to speak out. There is no tradition of vigorous debate and there is probably a great deal of fear ? as there was under our regime.
I loved the bit about no Nat voters after 1994.
Sam James
I have just spent the last hour catching up with this thread. I once attended a talk by Elie Wiesel were he addressed the situation that exists between West and East, between Jew and Arab. He pointed out that one does not have to agree with the others view point but one has to respect their right to worship any religion (including that we must respect each others religion). I could not agree more with a statement made about the situation everyone is talking about in the thread.
I am also reminded of Yugoslavia. I was on my way to a conference in Belgrade when the venue had to be changed for a venue across the ocean in Italy because of the civil war that broke out in that country. Muslims and Christians who were living in harmony (marrying one and other under the rule of Communism) turned against each other unleashing a blood bath. Members of the same family (by marriage) turned against each other. All I could think of was how ingrained into our beings the hatred is. It is inexplicable, despite peaceful existence over generations, these people both Christian and Muslim turned on one and other.
Without respect for the other person, there is no hope. I will add without trust there is no hope. The difference is that respect should be a given. Trust should be earned. Right now in the world there is no respect for the others religion and we certainly don?t trust each other and for whatever reason as Anael said, our hate is deep seated. Remarkable people are able to move past the hatred and onto a higher level. Anael, that is what you have to teach us. I know that in times of peace it is easy to say we love one and other. It is in times of stress and war that the hatred resurfaces and we do bad things like disrespect and mistrust one and other. It is in this state of mind that humans perpetrate heinous action on one and other.
This type of conversation can only lead to good things particularly if it is broaden to include the opinion of those on the other side. I have no doubt that we can all take the high road and speak from a moral point of view and state the obvious that not all Muslims are bad. I think it would be more revealing to hear from them directly.
Colette Hatchuel
I was named Colette Solica Hatchuel after Solica Hatchuel who grew up (to the age of 14) in culturally mixed Morocca. A Moslem shah wanted to marry her and she refused because she was Jewish, and she was dragged through the streets of Fez and beheaded by the man who loved her so much. He felt bad afterwards though, and put up a shrine in her honour in the Jewish cemetery in Morocco, and both Moslems and Jews go to visit her grave.
Bessie Taurog teased me in front of the grade 2 class for this name, and every one laughed when she mispronounced it. From then on, I would never acknowledge this second name at school.
I made friends with a Moslem guitarist at varsity, and he was suffocated by homeless people he took in to his home. The interesting thing is that he had a son born on my birthday and a daughter born on my brother?s birthday. My brother has a daughter who carries the same family name of Solica.
What do you make of all this.? Colette
Col
Naomi Stein
Anael ? I so admire and respect what you are doing. My problem is that I have become so cynical. Ten years ago I would have agreed with you. Now I think there are evil people who will always be evil.
Phil Cramer
There will always be evil people who do, or try to do evil things. They are much more likely to succeed when good people stand by and do nothing. They are much more likely to succeed in an autocratic society, and they are much more likely to fail where democracy flourishes.
Sometimes we can do little more than plant a seed or two and at other times we can do more. At the tme we matriculated many of us spoke out against the evil that existed in South Africa. We weren?t the final agents of change but we planted seeds, helped people and opened some minds. Anael is doing the same in Israel.
Radical Islam doesn?t have a monopoly on evil although it?s where evil predominates today. America has done many evil things in the last century. It destroyed Democracy all over the world when Democracy picked leadership not to it?s liking. They overthrew a pro-Western elected leader in Iran in 1953 because he wasn?t pro Western enough to allow American and British oil companies to take most of their oil. They destroyed democracies in Central America to benefit American companies.
At least America as a political system and institutions that can examine and rectify our misdeeds. We have free elections that can bring about change but it still required good people to act. In fact it encourages it.
Good always has the high ground and the moral authority. It can flourish anywhere. As civilized, educated, intelligence people we never give up and say there is nothing we can do.
Gary Davis
Dear Naomi,
U stated ?Anael ? I so admire and respect what you are doing. My problem is that I have become so cynical. Ten years ago I would have agreed with you. Now I think there are evil people who will always be evil.?
Evil can be quelled as long as one does not become complacent with the modus operandi. When the question is raised whether Islam and terror is affiliated, the common reply is that the majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful people who never engage in terror. I totally agree. The majority of Germans living in the Nazi era were also peaceful. The majority of Russians never killed anyone while about forty million of their fellow citizens were murdered by their Communist regime under Stalin. Germany was a threat to civilization because the Nazis and their ideology took over German society while the German population either supported the Nazi ideals or did nothing. Russia was a threat to civilization because Communists took over the country, and the Russian population either supported Stalin or did nothing. Certain Islamic societies are becoming a threat to civilization because Islamic totalitarians and terrorists are taking over those societies while the Muslims either support their ideals or do nothing. The dominant endeavor of Islamic ideology is totalitarian and that government must be Islamic and governed according to the strict interpretation of the Sharia (Islamic religious law) which is hate-filled. What is preached daily about Jews in the mosques rivals the rhetoric which the Nazis concocted about the Jews. One?s moral assessment of what is taking place in the Muslim world should be independent of the fact that the majority of Muslims are a peaceful people. Their peaceful or impassive lifestyle is not impacting the aggressive trends within their religion. The alarming fact is how little criticism of Islamic terror emanates from the Islamic groups. Unless the good Muslims do something to condemn and isolate the Muslim totalitarians and terrorists in their midst, history will judge them as it has all the good Germans during the Holocaust.
I have attached a link about Wafa Sultan. She was born in Syria, emigrated to the United States in 1989 and now resides in Los Angeles. Some of her quotes are ?I don?t believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim??. ?The trouble with Islam is deeply rooted in its teachings. Islam is not only a religion, Islam is also a political ideology that preaches violence and applies its agenda by force?
Link to Wafa Sultan = http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul
Davidoff
Hi Terry
Thanks for the article
My difficulties and reactions
As is usual for me when I see an article such as this ? the length and the complexity of the article eludes my simple right sided brain ? and I shy away (comforting myself that length will baffle my brain but embarrassed also to say that it is too complex for me to understand) For you and Sam ? I suspect you welcome the intellectualism and read it with the vigor that I might approach a piece of art
In addition, from the start, its left sided leanings makes me uncomfortable even though I know I have to look at the issue from as many sides as possible
My reaction at first ? since an article such as this will take me a week to process reread ? and rethink on, is that it is too far left and I will put it aside and get to it another day (and of course do not)
so I read it on first pass as best I could since I truly need to understand the left a little better
but I want to go back ? in case I missed it ? to ancient history ..and the to the issues of ancient documents..
to issues of the rights of the American Indian or the Maori?s or the Zulu?s, Xhosas or Bushmen
of the rights to land
of the codes and then morality of war and its results
Approach
Again the body is my teacher of how it should work
The mind and human behaviour my enigma ? but something to do with survival and ego
In the body ? everybody has a space and a function and all work together to give a miraculous result of peace and harmony ? We grow and mature in body and that is the result of cooperation
Despite wealth or poverty, happiness or sadness or any of the complexities that befall us the body keeps on churning and we grow
There is good and bad ? and in the body ? we call it health and disease
The good fosters the well being of the whole
The bad brings the whole down
Cancer is space occupation and a rebel in the community disabling the good from contributing to the whole
What I do know ? for all the issues the state of Israel has ? this little country has contributed significantly to the wellbeing of the whole ? at least in the technology and the science that it brings to the world
The same goes for the US with all its problems
And since I am an optimist at heart and like to praise rather than criticise when I use my cell phone or the web or write to you, I bless the cultures that have brought this to the world rather than criticise the American or Western colonialism It is astounding to me that the very people who criticise and bring down Western culture for its problems ? use the technology created by western culture without a thought of at least acknowledging it and at most praising it for what it has brought to the world at large
My Limitations
As result of my not having lived and breathed in Israel, and having the discomfort of armchair philosophy, I do not really know the problem
I happen to have an Israeli student (she is an Canadian and is studying medicine in both countries ? US and Israel) working with me at the moment with whom I was able to have only the briefest of discussions with yesterday as a result of your letter to me . She works in Beer Sheba
I established between running between patients that
Her father and I both came to the same conclusion ? right for my tribe ? left for the world
Before working in Israel ? she had rightwrd leanings
After working in Beer Sheba within the Arab and Bedouin community ? behind the drama and rhetoric of world politics she found real human beings who were in need
just as I did when I was in the clinics of Alexandria and Baragwanath and in Zululand
I asked her of the climate in Israel and established first hand that the rightist leanings of the now very powerful Russians is changing the moral face of the country .. and I understand a little more now
The Whole
We also have to understand the current day issues from the angle of the wellbeing of the whole
Democracy and numbers of people is only part of it
If democracy ruled in the body ? the pituitary ? a gland that directs the workings of so many vital functions is a jewel in its contribution ? would be thrown to the wolves of numbers It sits on its wonderful throne called the sella turcica (Turkish saddle)- a name given to the base of the skull where this approx 8-10mm gland sits, and commands all of endocrine function of the whole body
I do not suggest that we sit on a throne and continue to perpetuate the Chosen People idea but suggest that the positives have to be recognized and acknowledged and treasured. The consequences to the world and the body without the pituitary would be disastrous
Why is it so easy to criticise and so hard to praise? Why does human nature not thank the goodness of things and of people ? why is it mostly taken for granted
The pituitary needs this small space to contribute to the wellbeing of the whole Without it we would be in ?Shtoch street? as my parents used to say
This gland is not autonomous ? when the mileu changes or there is a hiccup in function (market forces and political forces for example) it reads this well and reacts by biofeedback and the people who depend on it respond and it reacts for the well being of the mileu of the body
In Conclusion
Terry and Sam
Forgive my persistent use of structure and function of the body to parallel with the situations of complexity of human behaviour It is the foundation I have, know and to some extent understand
My Questions
My deep questions relate to rights to land
Of how to recognize cancer or a variant at the level of a culture or a community or a people and how to recognize the positive contributors
My Hope
My hope is that in the same way we have the courts of law in our respective countries ? that theoretically have an unbiased scholalrly approach to rights and wrong of the world
That we have a unbiased legislative international body made of lawyers biologists scientists doctors, politicians, economists, mathematicians nutritionists religionists historians and humanists ?
who truly have the whole as the agenda
Create a code that we (the cultures of the world) should and could live by
I know I ask too much ? of course ? but this is what it will take
Forever grateful to you and our group for the inspirations
Ashley
Naomi Stein
Anael ? I so admire and respect what you are doing. My problem is that I have become so cynical. Ten years ago I would have agreed with you. Now I think there are evil people who will always be evil.
Phil Cramer
There will always be evil people who do, or try to do evil things. They are much more likely to succeed when good people stand by and do nothing. They are much more likely to succeed in an autocratic society, and they are much more likely to fail where democracy flourishes.
Sometimes we can do little more than plant a seed or two and at other times we can do more. At the tme we matriculated many of us spoke out against the evil that existed in South Africa. We weren?t the final agents of change but we planted seeds, helped people and opened some minds. Anael is doing the same in Israel.
Radical Islam doesn?t have a monopoly on evil although it?s where evil predominates today. America has done many evil things in the last century. It destroyed Democracy all over the world when Democracy picked leadership not to it?s liking. They overthrew a pro-Western elected leader in Iran in 1953 because he wasn?t pro Western enough to allow American and British oil companies to take most of their oil. They destroyed democracies in Central America to benefit American companies.
At least America as a political system and institutions that can examine and rectify our misdeeds. We have free elections that can bring about change but it still required good people to act. In fact it encourages it.
Good always has the high ground and the moral authority. It can flourish anywhere. As civilized, educated, intelligence people we never give up and say there is nothing we can do.
Gary Davis
Dear Naomi,
U stated ?Anael ? I so admire and respect what you are doing. My problem is that I have become so cynical. Ten years ago I would have agreed with you. Now I think there are evil people who will always be evil.?
Evil can be quelled as long as one does not become complacent with the modus operandi. When the question is raised whether Islam and terror is affiliated, the common reply is that the majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful people who never engage in terror. I totally agree. The majority of Germans living in the Nazi era were also peaceful. The majority of Russians never killed anyone while about forty million of their fellow citizens were murdered by their Communist regime under Stalin. Germany was a threat to civilization because the Nazis and their ideology took over German society while the German population either supported the Nazi ideals or did nothing. Russia was a threat to civilization because Communists took over the country, and the Russian population either supported Stalin or did nothing. Certain Islamic societies are becoming a threat to civilization because Islamic totalitarians and terrorists are taking over those societies while the Muslims either support their ideals or do nothing. The dominant endeavor of Islamic ideology is totalitarian and that government must be Islamic and governed according to the strict interpretation of the Sharia (Islamic religious law) which is hate-filled. What is preached daily about Jews in the mosques rivals the rhetoric which the Nazis concocted about the Jews. One?s moral assessment of what is taking place in the Muslim world should be independent of the fact that the majority of Muslims are a peaceful people. Their peaceful or impassive lifestyle is not impacting the aggressive trends within their religion. The alarming fact is how little criticism of Islamic terror emanates from the Islamic groups. Unless the good Muslims do something to condemn and isolate the Muslim totalitarians and terrorists in their midst, history will judge them as it has all the good Germans during the Holocaust.
I have attached a link about Wafa Sultan. She was born in Syria, emigrated to the United States in 1989 and now resides in Los Angeles. Some of her quotes are ?I don?t believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim??. ?The trouble with Islam is deeply rooted in its teachings. Islam is not only a religion, Islam is also a political ideology that preaches violence and applies its agenda by force?
Click on link.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul
From Me
Davidoff
October 22nd 2009
On Human Rights Watch
Robert Bernstein Op Ed NYT
?AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group?s critics.?